Messages

A very British problem

---

The first thing to say is that none of the current unrest here is new. In the 70s, 80s and early 90s we had the ANL (anti-Nazi league) and the BNP (British National Party) having big dust ups.

Racist slogans daubed on walls weren't uncommon. 'Engerland for the Engerlish' (racist bovver boys notoriously can't spell). 'Go home, Paki'. Most of the violence, then as now, was perpetrated by white males.

Neo Nazi group combat 18 were out on the streets, an organisation that emerged in 1992 and seemed to be made up of football hooligans.

This is all just in my lifetime. Our racist history goes back further. A mistake that gets made on this forum is the misunderstanding of the UK's level of diversity. This is due to people looking at the number of black people here, i.e those of African/Afro-Carribean heritage. They don't look at our Asian population.

Before we come to what's going on now, let's have a bit of history. Because in the context of our race relations, it matters.

You all know we colonised a fair few places. Despite some claims that this is irrelevant, in the UK it really isn't, because it is the biggest reason for our population demographic. Our 'special relationship' with India and the West Indies brought people, often at our invitation.

The first Indian restaurant was opened in 1810. You see, we have bland food here, the colonials liked the food in India and so wanted it here. Now there are Indian restaurants in every town and city. A relative of mine who is one of the 'go back where you came from' types of racists loves a good Indian takeaway. Funny, that.

Then, of course, we've always used the colonies as a labour market. The wind rush generation being the most famous post-war influx to help rebuild the nation and fill the labour shortage. The trouble was, we still had the colonial attitude that these were uncivilised people, not as good as us, but useful.

Working class whites had their noses put out of joint. The upper classes who ran the country brought these people over, but they wouldn't be living on the same streets, would they? Fears of crime, being raped and murdered in our beds were well document but were not rooted in any reality. Most of our immigrants were just people working for their families. Just like us. Who would have thought it?

Now you might be wondering what all this has to do with what's happening today? Surely it's all about the illegals on boats and those wanting to impose a religion/culture on us?

Sadly not. Not from the point of view of someone who has seen all this before. I may have been off the mainland for 10 years, but actually, I hadn't seen 'go home, Paki' much in the 10 years before I left, despite living in a region with a high Asian population. I was shocked but not surprised to read of a local finding 'go home, Paki' sprayed on her door. She was born here and her family isn't even originally from Pakistan.

Every crime committed by anyone with Asian (not black) heritage is splashed over the gutter press and media as another reason why 'they' shouldn't be here. In the past month, a video of Scarborough beach on a hot day has appeared with comments about the number of Asians. Stuff like, 'you wouldn't think this was England'. The video was taken on a day when a social club from a nearby city had it's annual outing. Ordinary people enjoying a day at the beach, legally here, most will have been born here, not harming anybody, but the 'send 'em back' comments flooded in thick and fast.

And then there's the flags. What actually happened was some eejit put the George Cross flag up on several streetlight posts adjacent to a busy main road. The local council of the area had them taken down. The eejit went to papers and social media saying the council took the flags down for 'woke' reasons and urging people to display our flag with pride in defiance of PC madness. Actually, the flags were taken down because the council weren't happy with large bits of flapping material distracting drivers. They'd have taken down any flag or material, nothing to do with what the flag was.

We've got this bee in our bonnet that we 'can't' display the England flag. There's flags hanging on the side of people's houses all up our street. Nobody has been told to take them down, and nobody will be.

In Scarborough, some nice wooden sheep were put up on a roundabout. Some eejit sprayed a red cross on them. Of course, the paint has run and it looks like some gory depiction of a werewolf attack, but any objection to what amounts to criminal damage is branded as not loving our nation and its flag.

The government, proving that they just want to keep their jobs, fearing losing to Reform in the next election are now proposing changes to 'settled status' laws. This isn't about illegals on boats.

People who are 3rd or 4th generation immigrants are being told to go home'
by ignorant thugs who can't tell one dark-skinned person from another. Chances are the person they yell at in the street is their doctor or works in their favourite Indian restaurant...

There's no need for all this. I wrote a while back about the riots and threat they'd come to our town. It's frightening.

I'm not scared of what the nice Muslim couple who run the local shop I get milk from will do. I AM scared of what the drunken white thugs will do.

It's a rewind to the bad old days I remember. I wouldn't be Asian for a big clock right now, and I am glad my husband's beard's gone grey. As an Olive skinned man with black hair, when we first met in the 90s he used to get racial abuse in the street. Now he gets mistaken for Santa Clause.

So. Despite what you may have heard, no town or city has banned Christmas. We are free to hang out flags outside our houses or have little ones on our cars, etc, just not on a lamppost on a busy highway where you couldn't hang ANY flag.

We don't have apartheid. People who look different are allowed to use the white man's beaches, here.

Yes, there has been trouble from extremist groups in the past and no, those people haven't been allowed to 'get away with it' because of race relations.

There will always be asshats from any culture. I'd hate to think people think all white British are like Tommy Robinson because we aren't. Why, then, would I think all those of another colour/creed must be going to chop my head off, set off a bomb, etc?

There's more but this post is long enough already. I will just say I do love my country, but right now I am ashamed and embarrassed by some of the idiots in it.

RE: A very British problem

---

'Pub culture' is less of a thing now as with rising costs many have closed and you can get cheaper booze in the supermarket, but the drinking culture is still there, though interestingly the younger generations ARE drinking less on the whole, apparently.

In Scarborough, summer is a drunk's Mecca. I worked at a school at the bottom of town by the beach. My day ended at 3:30 in the afternoon. Walking back through town was a gauntlet of dodging loud drunks and (I kid you not) stepping over prone drunks on the pavement.

In discussions about 'cleaning up' the town centre, many have proposed closing down Wetherspoons (cheap pub chain open from eight in the morning). It's a fair point, I have gone into town before 11 am and there's been police outside there. Worst was when husband and I went to catch a train at 9 am and had to step over people on the pavement.

We have an odd mentality around booze. I watch a lot of those cop documentaries and it's depressing how much trouble there is started by drunk people.

Sometimes I think some of the racism is related to certain groups struggling to integrate because they don't drink. Not so much now, but certainly in my lifetime, not being a drinker could be isolating. Pubs were the social hub and if you were in the pub, not drinking alcohol would get strange looks.

Interesting what you said about not saying certain things in certain pubs. Pubs attracted different clientele. There still are the football supporters pubs you don't go in on match day wearing the away side's colours.

A black friend of mine once told me he went to pick up some music equipment from a pub once and was stared at from the moment he went in. Turned out the pub was an EDL pub. The EDL was the English Defence League, a now pretty much defunct group with BNP associations championed by, you guessed it, Tommy Robinson.

The unvarnished truth is that, although well travelled nationally and individually, we are an insular nation. When we go abroad, a lot of us want what we have at home to be available to us. The rise of all inclusive hotels appeals to the British need to not leave their own culture and company whilst benefitting from better weather. Blackpool in the sun.

We complain about other cultures diluting our own, but what do we do when we live abroad? Form expat communities and open fish and chip shops, whilst never bothering to learn the language.

We criticise America because fewer of you have passports yet for all the travel we do most of it is to a sunny but of Europe that is lousy with Brits.

We worry about different coloured people talking different languages enjoying our beaches, then go for two weeks in Benidorm where you won't hear a Spanish word on the beach.

We travel all the time, but so few of us go anywhere in our heads. Some of us still get angry in foreign countries if we can't find an English speaking local and moan if there isn't a McDonalds.

Then we have the absolute cheek to moan about groups of settled migrants daring to speak their own language to eachother.

It's the hypocrisy that gets me. We aren't good at integrating with other cultures in their own land, even when we live there, yet expect migrants here to be fluent in 5 minutes and never to speak their own language or observe their own customs anywhere besides behind closed doors.

RE: A very British problem

---

Wait...this isn't about Casanova's schlong??
Well then, I'm out....

RE: A very British problem

---

It is a thread for those who want to get away from the schlong and would like to talk about other countries.

RE: A very British problem

---

And, typically, interest is minimal. Thank you for bothering, Harambe.

I'd love to talk about what's going on in my neck of the woods. I'd welcome outside opinions. But time and again I've put up threads and got crickets.

This is a political forum. If some people don't want outsiders talking about what's going on the US, but express no interest whatsoever in what's happening anywhere else, this might as well be called the 'USA political forum'.

We've had, 'Why aren't you posting about Russia or China?'

Crickets, that's why. And there's no Russian or Chinese representative to give another perspective.

Even Craig and Steve haven't dropped in for the opportunity to look at what's going on somewhere else.

So thanks for your thoughtful engagement, Harambe, I appreciate it. At least there's one of you who can see beyond his own back yard.

RE: A very British problem

---

Come on now, Scarbrems be honest. Some of us have asked questions and spoken about No-Go zones and illegal immigration is the UK. We've tried to speak about other subjects than Trump, but you know who has always steered every thread back to hating that one person, for almost ten years now.

Also, I've been to the UK, some parts don't look British anymore. There are parts of America like that too. Dearborn, Michigan, Minneapolis, cities where the Muslim population were welcome when they were in the minority, but once they became the majority.... surprise, surprise. Suddenly, tolerance and diversity went out the window. Suddenly, American laws and rights have no place in America.

Everyone talks negatively about racism in Western nations, but they are dead silent about it, in non-western nations. No one speaks about racism in African nations or Indian nations or Asian nations. It's always white nationalism, and Nazi this or that.

I tried writing about the horrors the Japanese Empire (colonizers) did, that surpassed the Germans. Very few wanted to talk about.

I'm in Japan, right now (Tokyo). There is very little diversity. I tried watching TV here... all Homogeneous. They even drove out their Miss Japan because she was only half-Asian. And no one cared.

No one speaks about the colonizing China does... today. No one speaks about the slavery going on in Africa by Africans.... TODAY. The slavery that happens in Haiti... Today, by black people.

Scarbrems, you clearly want a happy rainbow world where everyone lives together in peace and harmony, and you're willing to support immigrants coming to the UK in mass. Perhaps, you think it's payback for the past, or something. Perhaps, you think diversity is strength and the UK will be all the better for it.

But what if you're wrong? horribly wrong, and it leads to death and the destruction of the UK or it's take over. No insult, but you will likely be gone in a few years. What happens to the following generation, if you're wrong? And if human history and human's tribal nature is any indication, you most likely are wrong, despite what you "hope for".

RE: A very British problem

---

Diversity of race and diversity of culture are different things. I'm a big fan of polite English culture, and it will continue to prevail in rural and upperclass areas no matter what happens with immigration, and genteel English culture has a powerful influence on people over time that should not be underestimated. I'm basing this generalization off seeing how people or many races have adapted very successfully into English culture over generations, in fact, probably more successfully than into American culture at large. I'm sure Emma can speak more to this topic, as I'm just speaking as an outside observer.

I found the werewolf description quite amusing, Emma. I've seen the English flag stuff you mentioned even in the US. Young English men visiting as tourists will hang the flag out of their windows, or replace an American flag somewhere as a joke, if they can pull it off. Funny enough, the "Christian flag" looks a lot like the American flag. On one notorious occasion many years ago, not knowing about the similarity, I myself flew it above the American flag and caused a big ruckus. That's a long story for another day.

The flag culture you describe certainly has its similarities in the US. Boy Scouts and those in the armed forces are aware of proper flag etiquette, but it's common for American flags to be everywhere on everything from beach towels and hats to underwear. I to have been told to "go back to [insert random country that I'm not from]" by dumb white locals.

There is some history behind some of the racism in the UK, though it may have little logical basis. For example, acid attacks, which are prevalent in Pakistan (typically, scorned men getting revenge on a pretty girl) were on the rise for a number of years in the UK in a different context entirely: biker gangs (mostly men) throwing acid on their male rivals. The issue received sponsorship by Princess Anne and eventually the sale of acid become controlled in 2019, and it's now on the decline. But people have long memories, and might still blame Pakistanis for it, even through acid attacks were practically invented in England and had a history there long before they came to Pakistan.

In fairness, Pakistani culture has a well-earned cultural reputation of men exhibiting love bombing often followed by abuse of women. This is not unique to Pakistan, but I've seen it firsthand. And there was the 7/7 attack in London 20 years ago. But the youth today might not even know about that stuff.

I do agree with Lance in the general sense regarding larger non-integrating cultural blocks. This is why it is important for schools to have some regulation, to ensure that a national language is taught, and to prevent the formation of madrassas. I don't know if that is an issue there but it could be over time, in theory.

I don't think I've ever had Indian food in England. Eventually, someone somewhere will make a fortune selling curry French fries under the brand "Aloo Akbar (subtitle: our potatoes are the bomb)".

Abroad, English tourists still likely receive deferential treatment in many counties. I was once with one of my brothers at a tourist restaurant full of Brits and the host kept seating people behind us who were white. We had to chase the waitstaff around to get anything. Was it because the English are great tippers? Yeah right. Everyone knows that title belongs to dumb Americans.

RE: A very British problem

---

Jeez, Lancelot, will you READ what I WROTE!

What do you think England 'looks like' that it doesn't look like it any more.

Some Indians as I said, have been here since the early 1800s. That's longer than many Americans can trace their ancestry back in that country.

As I have said lot of times, now, but it's not going in, so I'll say it yet again, it's not about believing we deserve punishment for past misdemeanors, it's about recognising WHY our diversity exists in the first place.

Much of the Indian and Pakistani population now are at least third generation.

You don't want to discuss this from any point of view other than white Northern Europeans being victims of a problem they have played no part in.

You seem very keen to absolve those of Northern European origin of any responsibility whatsoever, whilst very keen to highlight the failings in others. Now, why is that, I wonder?

I have, in the past, admired your ability to look objectively at your own race, wanting people to take responsibility for themselves.

Why does it bother you that I want MY race to take some responsibility? It's something we haven't been very big on in the past.

Why do you consider my perspective as some sort of unicorn and rainbow notion? This is MY people's history. It's not something I've made up.

As I also have said before, I don't deny African slavery or dodgy actions of other people. That's their racial past and present, for them to consider responsibility or otherwise. This is mine. Not yours. You aren't of European descent.

I don't need you excusing my race, just as you don't need me excusing yours. I am simply legitimately calling out my own people. As you do with yours.

You keep painting us Northern Europeans with the same romantic ideas you think I have. Somewhere in the middle might be the truth, but I can tell you this.

Not all Muslims are nasty bombers. Not all black people are thriving druggies. And not all white people are saintly victims of nasty foreigners who have only ever had positive worldwide influences.

It's not that I refuse to admit problems, it's that I refuse to see the problem as so bloody one-sided, and I refuse to ignore the role our colonial past plays in all this.

I don't ignore Chinese colonialism at all. I've brought up their insidious manners of infiltrating our industry, etc. But, again, I'm also not blind to how we ran towards China when we wanted the cheap goods they provide, the cheap labour. The factories we've built there, etc.

But yeah, you carry on believing it's all the fault of nasty bad foreigners and we're all innocent victims.

RE: A very British problem

---

Harambe, there's Indian restaurants everywhere, here. Chicken Tikka Masala was named the nation's favourite dish a few years ago.

It's been adapted to British tastes, it's not as you'd find it in India, apparently. The Baltic was actually invented in Birmingham.

I think it depends where you go when it comes to British tourists.

The thing to remember about us is that, for the last 400 years, we've been instrumental in diluting our own 'culture' because we have brought back the bits we like from the nations we've visited, including food.

Japan may well have a homogenous society, but what a lot of people don't know is that between 1603 and 1853, it was 'locked'. No foreigners were allowed in, and, gradually, no Japanese were allowed out, either.

If my country had done that, we might well be more homogenous than we are today. But if we had, Australia, New Zealand, Canada and the US wouldn't be quite the same, now would they?

This is what I am getting at when I talk about how our colonial history shapes our present in the same way Japan's 'locked' culture has shaped theirs.

For the world Lancelot wants to exist to have happened, we would have needed to never have left our homelands in the first place.

It's an interesting thought. What would the world look like if, for a few hundred years over that crucial period, like Japan, nobody in Northern Europe left their own country, and nobody visited.

RE: A very British problem

---

That's a really good idea for a novel. What if the Romans never came? What if the middle-Eastern religion that became Christianity never got beyond its Hebrew roots? What if nobody ever mixed with another culture ever?

What would today look like? What innovations might never have happened if nobody ever expanded? If we never traded goods with anywhere else, what would our diets be like? Our clothes.

In Scarborough castle, where I work when I am not in schools, we have a range of pre-Roman alcohol (The castle site has history dating back 5,000 years, though the castle itself wasn't built until the 12th century). The Romans brought grapes, so wine was made with other fruit. Then there's mead, made with honey. That's an acquired taste.

We've all gained a lot from not being homogenous. From having input from elsewhere. Even those countries with *gasp* dark skinned people in them.

Our numerical system comes from India via the Arab world. Our notions of democracy can be traced back to ancient Greece.

Some believe the human race originated in Africa.

We are where we are precisely because we didn't sit at home, and we didn't shut others out.

Japan actually paid dearly in terms of advancement by closing its doors. It's empire building in the years that followed was a desperate attempt to catch up. An insular society that regarded foreign lands with suspicion? We saw the result of that mentality, didn't we?